Let me start by showing you what led to this converation, it all began innocently enough on facebook. I was doing on of those my 5's and the subject was 5 Things I Hate That Everyone Else Seems To Like
Sara CraibAndrew D. Lacelle
Sara Craib
Andrew D. Lacelle
Sara Craib
ndrew D. Lacelle
Andrew
howdy
10:28amSara
Howdy
10:28amAndrew
hey, just responding now
do you have msn?
10:28amSara
Lol yes
10:29amAndrew
lacelle316@hotmail.com
10:29amSara
Hm very nice
10:32amSara
Ah but it does make a difference, it may not be as great as I want it to be, but it's still making a difference.
10:32amAndrew
it's just used to help people sleep at night
have you watched the discovery program about what would happen to the world if humans became extinct?
10:33amSara
A little bit of it
10:33amAndrew
what did you think?
10:34amSara
Only saw a little bit of it
10:34amAndrew
I thought it was fairly profound about how we don't have as much impact as most people would have you believe
10:34amSara
But, wasn't it if humans became extinct now
10:34amAndrew
correct
the world would keep right on spinning
10:36amSara
but what about if humans didn't exist at all :)
10:37amAndrew
then there'd be no great wall
10:37amSara
and further more, how does that even prove your point at all?
10:37amAndrew
basically that our impact for better or for worse is greatly exagerated
we ourselves may have a declining quality of life
however
the world will go on
that's the part that always bugs me about enviros
they use planet, earth, global but not world, because world makes it sound too big
10:38amSara
How does it prove that our impact is for better?
10:39amAndrew
I didn't say for better
I said for better or for worse our impact is greatly exagerated
10:39amSara
"basically that our impact for better or for worse is greatly exagerated"
10:39amAndrew
whether that puts you in a category of people who think we're the chosen ones
or a category of people who have the audacity to think that humans of all things will be the demise of the world
10:40amSara
Lol the chosen ones? it's about reducing what we use, nothing more.
10:41amAndrew
that's like getting mad at the single fisherman for over fishing
the main proprietor is China
10:42amSara
and what, you're the only one that knows this?
10:42amAndrew
your carbon foot print has such a small effect it's like a baby humping a hooker
no, I'm not saying that
just saying it's unnecessary
10:42amSara
It isn't unnecessary
10:42amAndrew
and a way for people to feel better about themselves
kinda like runs for awareness
or tshirts to stop violence
10:42amSara
It's just about doing what you can, so you're atleast doing something.
10:42amAndrew
or concerts for peace
something?
10:43amSara
You're not just sitting there saying everything is for nothing, and the "world" will sort itself out
10:43amAndrew
it will
nature is funny that way
it can handle all we can dish out
10:43amSara
and a lot of "environmentalists" didn't agree with the concert for peace.
10:43amAndrew
well good for them
10:44amSara
and furthermore, nature cannot handle all we can dish out.
10:44amAndrew
sure it can
10:44amSara
Well, where are all the honey bees?
10:44amAndrew
hahahaha
10:44amSara
:P
10:44amAndrew
one species is not nature
and guess what
people die, species become extinct and the world remains
10:45amSara
Ah, but if one species becomes extinct from us, that's still a profound effect we have on nature
10:45amAndrew
we're a part of nature
if nature didn't want us to build shit, it wouldn't have given us opposable thumbs
tough titty for the honey bees
10:46amSara
yes, and we've been given the gift to decide for ourselves
10:46amAndrew
correct
so no pressure tacts from the green nazis
*tactics
10:46amSara
Yes, and we can all decide to stop consuming as much.
10:46amAndrew
or consume more
I'm just not a fan of the finger waggers
the people who sit up there on their high horse and decide what's best for everyone
10:47amSara
Exactly. Furthermore, the fact that one person can't make a difference, look at how much awareness we have now about the environment, it had to start somewhere.
10:47amAndrew
hahaha
awareness?
listen to yourself
what's awareness?
awareness is the ultimate bullshit story
10:48amSara
Awareness is realizing you're running the tap while you brush your teeth
10:48amAndrew
here, give this a read
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com
10:48amSara
Already read it
Thought it was funny
10:48amAndrew
it's spot fuckin' on
it's all about self satisfaction
under the guise of doing something better
10:50amSara
No it's not, I get no satisfaction. I don't get satisfaction when I recycle, I don't get any when I reduce what I use.
It's just about doing what you can, plain and simple.
10:51amAndrew
it's kinda like how I always had a little more respect for the people who donate their time and money anonymously instead of making it about them
reduce
recycle
but why you gotta make such a big deal out of it?
self satisfaction
smugness
sense of accomplishment
clap clap clap
10:52amSara
You're putting that label on people because you don't want to make and chances, and don't want to feel guilty about it
*changes
10:52amAndrew
it's not so much that you're "helping the environment" but people gotta know you are
look
I'm a poor man
I don't drive
I have my own problems
10:53amSara
Everyone has their own problems
10:53amAndrew
I don't not have a car so I can feel better about saving the world
I don't have a car cause I can't afford one
and the last thing I want or need is some granola telling me I should reduce my waste
10:54amSara
Well don't you live in Vancouver?
10:54amAndrew
correct
10:54amSara
Well who really needs a car in Vancouver?
10:54amAndrew
aka the land of finger waggers
10:56amSara
I'm having a daughter, and I can't sit here using everything up when I have a second generation I'm introducing to the world. It's not about me, it's about doing anything that I can, even if it makes little difference at all, atleast I've tried something.
10:57amAndrew
which is purely for yourself
why can't you admit that?
that's what it comes down to, doing things so you'll feel better about yourself
nothing wrong with that
10:57amSara
and furthermore, I am not claiming that you need to abolish everything plastic in your household, it's atleast making little chances in your life, that will not have a profound effect, but it's still something
10:57amAndrew
but it's the guise that drives me
10:58amSara
*changes
10:58amAndrew
change for change's sake is unnecessary
10:58amSara
It's not
10:58amAndrew
besides, I'm a misanthropic
10:58amSara
It's not for nothing
10:58amAndrew
sure it is
it will have zero effect in a million years
it will have zero effect in a week
it's all so people will feel like they've done something
10:59amSara
Ah, but it doesn't work that way. When I make changes, people around me make changes, and so forth
11:00amAndrew
what have you changed so far?
what's different about the environment thanks to you and your circle of friends?
11:01amSara
Haha, well I would say that upstairs they would probably consume roughly around 50 bottles of water
and now they don't
11:01amAndrew
and this has had what kind of impact?
11:01amSara
and that's within a week
11:02amAndrew
quality of life better or the same?
11:02amSara
well, that's 50 bottles of water everyweek that they're not wasting
11:02amAndrew
wasting?
were they not drinking the water?
11:03amSara
yes, but now they're not drinking it out of plastic, a nd just throwing it away
11:03amAndrew
and you don't see that as smugness?
11:03amSara
Nope
11:03amAndrew
interesting
11:03amSara
because I don't feel better about myself
11:03amAndrew
I guess we're all heroes in the plays of our lives
sure seems like it
11:04amSara
Why, because you see other people with smugness, I must be smug?
11:04amAndrew
no
11:04amSara
Yes
You've just told me about all these other people that feel so great and smug becase they threw a bottle in the recycling instead of the garbage
so therefor, whatever I do I must feel smug about
11:05amAndrew
did I say that?
11:05amSara
Yes
11:05amAndrew
I don't remember typing those words
let me scroll up
11:05amSara
I don't remember typing I was smug, but you seem to think so
11:06amAndrew
I didn't say you did though
I think you're smug
I believe you don't think you're smug
11:06amSara
Then what's the point of this argument? :P
11:06amAndrew
I don't view it as an argument
more like a conversation
11:07amSara
Well, discussion then
11:07amAndrew
I enjoy conversing with the enviro people and see where they're coming from
it helps add credibility to my stance
11:08amSara
How does what i've said add credibility to your stance?
11:08amAndrew
because of your conviction
once someone has put the ist or believes in an ism, they're gonna be tough nuts to crack
11:09amSara
I guess you must view watching what you use as some huge life change, it really isn't
Same goes for you
11:10amAndrew
I don't follow
I observe
and using objectivity find the holes in the theories
11:10amSara
You follow the view point that nothing can be done.
11:10amAndrew
see the weakness of the herds
I never said that
all sorts of stuff can be done
but my main point is that it's unnecessary
11:11amSara
Well what's going to be done with an attitude like yours?
11:11amAndrew
I don't feel much needs to be done
why does stuff have to be done?
who ever decided that?
how come I wasn't invited to the meeting?
was there punch served?
how about kool aid?
11:13amAndrew
people like to feel important, self importance keeps many people going
11:13amSara
Why do you even wake up in the morning? why do you feed yourself? why do you even live?
I can ask those kinds of questions too
Why do we do anything
11:13amAndrew
people want to feel like they're making a difference so they won't feel their life is essentially worthless
11:13amSara
why are we even here
11:13amAndrew
survival
we're here cause we're not all there
I eat to live
11:14amSara
We've erased plenty of instincts, I'm sure we can erase that one
11:14amAndrew
that's just silly talk
that's the most important instinct of all
11:14amSara
I mean, why anything. Why why why.
11:15amAndrew
the why's aren't important
it's the what's that matter
I don't care why I'm dying, I just care that I'm dying
I don't care why my pen works, I just care that it does
11:16amSara
My point is, you're saying why to everything. Why do I care, why do I bother, why do I try to make a difference when my difference isn't going to mean anythign.
I just care what's the matter :)
11:16amAndrew
what's the matter?
I never asked you why
that implies that I'd care about the answer
I'm not a why guy
you know the big problem with the why's?
11:17amSara
What's that
11:17amAndrew
they can be changed
which brain do we use to study the brains of other animals/
?
the human brain, kind of bias don't you think?
what do we know about man?
that he's usually wrong
11:18amSara
but what does this have to do about anything?
11:18amAndrew
you can bet on it
because you're asking these why's and the responses you'll get vary
with the what's it's more definite
11:19amSara
So, if we keep consuming fresh water at alarming rates, will it still always be here?
Probably not
Who knows
11:19amAndrew
as long as it keeps raining
11:19amSara
but where does the rain come from?
11:19amAndrew
here
there
everywhere
you don't have enough trust in our immune systems
you might wind up being one of those parents who won't take the kid off the tit
life is rough
11:20amSara
if we have no water, where's the rain going to come from?
11:20amAndrew
suck it up
we're this shortage of water?
*where's
11:20amSara
We're apart of it
Take the kid off where?
11:21amAndrew
off the tit
our immune system was built for challenges
11:21amSara
You're right, I do plan to breast feed for a long time
:)
11:21amAndrew
you're trying to make everything too easy
11:21amSara
It's not easy
11:21amAndrew
thus raising a generation of pussies
11:22amSara
I think you've completely interpreted what I've said to you the wrong way.
11:23amAndrew
no, I'm fairly sure I'm aware
you watched An Inconvenient Truth and are now an expert on the subject
11:23amSara
I didn't want to watch that film
and I haven't
11:24amAndrew
well that's a relief
but you're still drinking the kool aid
11:24amSara
Being "aware" is more than about scaring people
11:25amAndrew
correct, it's about feeling like you've done something
thus the smugness
here's a question
name one person you know who isn't aware of the environment
11:25amSara
My husband
11:25amAndrew
go ahead, ask all the contacts who are online
he doesn't know about the environment?
11:25amSara
Who is exactly like you
No, he has no clue
:)
11:25amAndrew
doesn't know that it exists?
well there you go
I'm sure you two have some lovely conversations
11:27amSara
No, he has his own opinions, that's fine. The only thing I tell him is not to be wasteful for the sake of being wasteful.
11:27amAndrew
I'm saving this convo and making a note of it, do I have your permission?
11:27amSara
If he runs the water while brushing his teeth, when he's not using it. I tell him to turn it off, what's the point of wasting it if you're not using it.
No :P
11:28amAndrew
how come?
11:28amSara
I don't know, because I talked to you privately about it.
11:29amAndrew
what if I covered up your name?
I was thinking of titling it "Conversation with an Environmentalist"
cause I think this has been a good one
11:29amSara
It's not just that, I was talking to you not anybody else. If I wanted other people to read our conversation, I would have just posted it on your facebook.
11:29amAndrew
fine
11:29amSara
Thank youu
11:29amAndrew
you're welcome
Sara
and furthermore, I do not get a long with other people that tote themselves "environmentalists"
11:30amAndrew
self hating jews feel the same way about jews
11:31amSara
Haha
No it's not like that at all
Just other people have different views about what the environment needs, and doesn't need
and I'm not an extremist, so I can't always agree with them
11:32amAndrew
neat
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